Episode 140: Working Out

 

Transcript:

Rich: [00:00:00] Wanna know what the smartest people in the SMB channel are reading? Check out Channel Holic, the industry blog for me, veteran technology journalist and analyst Rich Freeman. Covering managed services, AI, cybersecurity, and M&A, Channel Holic delivers sharp analysis and insider perspectives trusted by MSP executives, technology vendors, and IT investors alike.

If you wanna understand where the channel’s headed next and why, check out Channel Holic at www.channelholic.news. And three, two, one, blast off, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of the MSP Chat Podcast, your weekly visit with two talking heads talking with you about the services, strategies, and success tips you need to make it big in managed services.

My name is Rich Freeman. I’m [00:01:00] chief analyst at Channel Master, the organization responsible for the show. I’m joined, as I am every week, by our other co-host, our CEO and chief strategist at Channel Master. His name is Erick Simpson. Erick, how you doing?

Erick: Doing pretty good this week, Rich. Home base in between travel, so it’s nice to kinda recharge, get a little bit of a break before the, the next push into Q4 events and travel.

How about you?

Rich: No I’m right there with you. The, this month of September has been relatively quiet travel-wise for me. I’m in the middle of a three-week stretch. This never happens, folks. Three weeks at home here b- which is good. I’ve been enjoying it. The weather has been cooperating a lot here in Seattle.

And yeah, starting next week, about eight days from when we’re recording this, it’s gonna be back out on the road a lot. Pretty much most of the way, not all the way into into Thanksgiving. So this has been good. Nice r- chance to, recharge a little bit. Yeah put a little juice in the batteries and then off we go, back out onto the [00:02:00] road.

Erick: As you say, Rich, off we go with today’s episode

Rich: Let’s do that. Let’s do get into our story of the week, and this is something that I wrote about in Channelholic my blog in my most recent post. For context w- one of the topics that I think there’s been a lot of interest in the managed services world, and something that people ask me about relatively regularly and that I ask vendors about relatively regularly, if you’re selling software to and through MSPs and you are including AI-based functionality in that tool, do you or will you charge per token?

Because the higher you kinda go up into the AI stack, up to the Anthropics and the OpenAIs, they obviously have been charging by the token for a long time. We’re seeing more and more enterprise vendors do that now, where they will adopt a sort of hybrid pricing scheme. You pay a sort of flat software fee or entrance fee and then some kind of per token am- [00:03:00] amount on top of that.

MSPs, generally speaking are not fond of that kind of variable pricing model with the vendors that they buy from. And so right now I’m not really aware of very many, if any vendors selling to and through MSPs who have done that. We’ve actually spoken on the show about some companies Squash comes to mind, Atera comes to mind, that have explicitly told me, “We don’t do that.

We won’t do that, and we won’t do that. There’s no reason why MSPs should have to figure out token consumption and budget for that.” I said no one, but now I know this is not true. There is a vendor called Flamingo that we’ve spoken about here on the show probably very early in the year.

I’m gonna guess January, February. This is a startup. This is a very young company. The idea initially was that they were gonna build an MSP tool stack using open source software. Their profit model was ba- the open source software was essentially gonna be free. [00:04:00] The, their profit would come from the AI that they were building in-house to layer on top of that.

Things have shifted a little bit since then. They, as they kinda got into the open source tooling available out there, they discovered really isn’t, a lot of it isn’t ready for prime time. So they have built their own tools but they haven’t invested a whole ton of time in that. They built an RMM for themselves in about six weeks, which reflects what you can do with AI coding tools right now.

They built a documentation tool in five. They invested that much effort because they know that they need to have really good high quality software for MSPs out there, but also that the software is not how you make they think. Software is not how you make money in that business if you are in the RMM PSA documentation.

It’s so easy to build an RMM if they can do it in six weeks. The, the idea that you’re gonna create a code moat, that your code base is gonna be so good that you’re gonna get way out in [00:05:00] front and you’re gonna have the ability to charge premium rates, this the folks at Flamingo believe is a doomed model.

That the way they’re, you need to make money in this business, they’re, the business they’re in is by charging essentially by the token for labor. And so this is the idea. There are different ways to price tokens. Th- their thinking basically is we’re gonna automate the help desk and over time other functions within the MSP as well.

The more automation we deliver to the MSP, the more tokens they’re consuming. And yes, the more they are paying us for those tokens, but the more they’re saving at the same time versus what they might be paying a growing team of humans to do. And so they’re coming out ahead even though they’re paying by the token.

Every time they buy a token, it’s a little bit less they’re paying than what they would be paying for the labor the way they used to do things before. Meanwhiles Flamingo itself doesn’t have to deal with the margin [00:06:00] variability of not quite knowing what you’re gonna pay upstream to Anthropic or whoever and what you’re going to get or the gap basically between what you’re paying upstream and the flat amount that you’re getting from the MSP.

So their pricing model is hybrid. They are building towards a stack that will ultimately have 20 components to it. Right now they’ve got eight in market. If you become a subscriber to the service, you pay a dollar per device per month or 80 cents if you buy an annual contract. Very low fee.

Oh, that’s because there’s still a lot of open source software in the tooling that they’ve created, and also because they don’t really aspire to make big money on software. They don’t think that’s a long-term option for them. The if you buy the monthly plan, you get 10 million tokens a month. If you buy the annual contract, you get 25 million tokens a month.

They’ve got 400 partners right now, early adopter partners, Erick. Those folks are going through 10 to 20X on average, that [00:07:00] allotment of tokens that they get every month. And so far, according to Michael Ashraf, the CEO and founder of Flamingo, no one’s dropped out Because they can’t perfectly budget what they’re going to be spending on this software stack every month.

And over time it, it goes up. They feel, the, the Flamingo’s partners feel like the, the value equation is working in their favor. And so far the people are sticking around and they’re just paying per token. Again, M- Michael Ashraf has said explicitly, I quote him in the article saying, “Every vendor you work with, if you’re an MSP, will be doing this eventually.

It’s just a matter of when.” And so now there is one vendor that has taken that critical first step in that direction, and the question is, Erick, do others follow? Or do they eventually open a, … I suspect a lot of those vendors right now behind closed doors are thinking, “I don’t know how much longer I can continue not to have some [00:08:00] consumption-based element to my pricing.”

Flamingo believes everybody is going to d- go consumption-based at some point. The question is, are they or are they not right?

Erick: How much time do we have on this episode, Rich? My goodness, this is a… we’ve been, watching and interviewing and speaking with and reporting back a lot in the last, I would say 24 months about AI, the vendors, how MSPs are trying to figure out how they’re going to address this.

And, my gut reaction to this story is okay, so there’s now, eight different m- ways to try to pay for AI and for MSPs to try to figure out how to monetize it. We’ve… we know that there are some vendors that say, “Hey, it’s flat rate. We’re gonna, we’re gonna keep that promise.”

I don’t know how they’re gonna keep that promise. Y- just watching what’s happening i- in the channel it’s a great vision. It’s, I hope that they can maintain that. But, the other end of the spectrum is this consumption thing, which MSPs, we thought we were done with all that, years ago.

And [00:09:00] now we’re back to there’s consumption for licensing and storage and backup, and now this, right? AI and our tools. So it’s gonna be super, super tricky for, MSPs that are typical size. The majority of MSPs, we know fit in kind of one, one size of, revenue and t- and growth and things like that.

I’m not talking about the outliers, the unicorns, and the really small folks. But it’s even worse for the small folks because you’ve got to… how do you charge a fee i- in advance and then have another invoice? Because this is how we used to do it when we had to do it this way back in, the Stone Age when I had my MSP, right?

It’s like, “Okay, you’re gonna get two invoices a month. One’s the flat fee, and then the other thing’s all the extra stuff that we did for you that month.” Now, that extra invoice is consumption, and in there will be, token burn. And the other thing that, is gonna make it tough for MSPs, from what, the way I look at it, Rich, [00:10:00] is M- some MSPs think that the cost of their tools You know, incorrectly in my opinion, they feel like, oh, that’s a business expense, that’s just a cost of doing business.

When in fact, when I’m working with MSPs, my philosophy is like, no, you have to, you have to add a little bit of an uplift to every invoice, however you do it, whether it’s a percentage of the invoice for administrative stuff and tools or whatever, or if you’re actually tracking and able to recoup that.

Think of, an architecture firm, or an attorney firm. Every staple, every piece of paper they print, like they are charging… It’s not a cost of doing business. This is what, they are up-charging to sell to clients. So how are MSPs going to have the conversation with clients that say, “Hey, because our fees are– what our cost of doing business fluctuates, so is our invoice to you.”

I’m sure there’s an answer there. I’m just giving you an extreme position and a knee-jerk reaction to, [00:11:00] what, one or two MSPs out there might be thinking about this whole thing.

Rich: Now, it– That is a great point and a really important question, and this is something we, we talk about regularly, that there is variability to AI in terms of how much of it gets consumed, and the question is who’s going to absorb that variability?

The, the Frontier labs have made it clear from the get-go it’s not gonna be them. Right now, it’s the vendors who are absorbing that that variability, and at l- at least in the managed services world. Out and beyond that it’s very different. What they will tell me when I’m talking to them about this and ex- and voicing a little skepticism about how long can you kinda do that, is there’s a, a, an art and a science to FinOps to token management.

We’re pretty good at it. We’re certainly better at it than the MSPs, and so we feel like we’re gonna be able to do this as long as we need to. We’ll see whether that really turns out to be true or not. But if it’s not if that variability gets [00:12:00] passed along to the MSP, then the burden is on the MSP.

Right now, it’s on the vendor. They’re charging a flat rate downstream and paying a variable rate upstream. Now if the vendor starts charging for consumption, the MSP has to decide, “Am I gonna absorb that variability?” Or, as you were saying, “Am I gonna have to sit down with my customer and sorta help them understand here’s how it works with AI, and so here’s how it’s gonna work when we bill you?'”

I’ll say this, and I should have probably emphasized this before in terms of the, the 400-ish MSPs who are working with Flamingo. Flamingo is very quick to say these are very AI-forward MSPs. They’re not like a cross-section of the MSP community out there. And so they’re, in addition to whatever they’re doing with Flamingo software, they’re doing crazy things with ChatGPT and Claude.

They’re very used to paying for AI by the token. And so this, the Flamingo model just feels like terra firma for them. They’re not, put off by… That’s not true of a [00:13:00] lot of MSPs and it’s not true probably of a lot of the end users MSPs serve. And so the question becomes, does that shift over time?

Do people become more used to paying for AI on a consumption basis, and therefore less likely to object if my vendor makes me do that, if my MSP makes me do that?

Erick: Yeah. Yeah, I can picture a way through this as I think about it more. ‘Cause I think the initial– the, the highest token burn you’re gonna experience I’m, again, just throwing things, against the wall is probably gonna be when you first onboard a new client and you’re collecting all this data.

And it’s kinda when MSPs deploy an RMM tool today, they’re paying, per endpoint, let’s say, or whatever, right? It just, it never varies. But it can create a tremendous amount of noise, right? All these false, positives and all. And you’ve gotta [00:14:00] really wrangle the R… I’m just using RMM as an example.

You’ve gotta wrangle that platform down so that it… I always say, look, it’s like a firewall. Only open up the things that you need at first. Don’t just open it up and collect all this data because, then the technicians ignore it because it’s filling up queues, et cetera. MSP’s probably gonna have to get really smart about how they deploy a, an RMM or any tool that has variability to it and how they train the model.

So there’s probably gonna be, more MSPs, incorporating maybe a higher onboarding fee or d- distributing the cost of that onboarding fee, depending upon the length of an agreement and things like that, until they can get a sense for what’s happening in the environment, and then be really focused around minimizing alerts and tickets being created and things like that.

I can picture h- the whiteboard of how the workflow would have to look, but then you’d have to pilot it and test it with a bunch of clients until you feel comfortable. And I know other vendors are like you just connect your [00:15:00] Claude, or ChatGPT license to our thing, and then, that’s on you,” kind of a thing.

Apples and oranges maybe. I don’t know. Feels like there’s almost nothing that MSPs don’t need to pilot and test right now. Yeah. So this is just one more one more example of of something that people are gonna be thinking through a lot. Th- this was interesting to me, that there is now…

Rich: A, a vendor has cracked that glass and gone token base, and we’ll see where it goes and how MSPs respond to that. Erick in a lot of my writing about managed services right now, as I talk about the rise of these enormous MSPs out there, I’ve been encouraging MSPs who are not enormous to cultivate depth, you know, depth of vertical expertise or subject matter expertise, whatever.

Turns out there are other reasons, additional reasons plenty of reasons to cultivate depth, and you’ve got a different one for us in your tip of the week.

Erick: Yeah. This is, i, Was thinking about what we’re seeing in the marketplace and how we now are in a s- a scenario where we have these [00:16:00] fast-growing, MSPs.

The, the whole environment has shifted. A lot has stayed the same, but we’re seeing and looking at some fast-growing MSPs. And I’ve been kinda watching what’s, what’s happening here in the market. And what I’m f- what I’m finding, and, love your input on this, Rich, is these folks are really what you said.

They’re really going deeper, not just bigger. And what I mean by that is the fastest-growing MSPs that I’m tracking aren’t going after four new logos a month and things like that. What they’re doing, a- actually, when you look at it, they have less overall clients that you, than you might expect.

They’re just going deeper and wider within those client organizations with the right clients, and they’re being very, I would say specific about the types of clients that they keep. They’re doing the pruning every year, and they’re just focusing on just getting more of that strategic [00:17:00] value to clients in a much broader way.

So really what’s happening here is they’re focusing– And there are three tips really is where this is ending up. And why it matters so much today, Rich, is because we’ve been talking on the program a lot about how MSP businesses are being valued now that there are, there’s a lot more M&A activity than we’ve ever seen, right?

Every year it seems to be, growing and growing. And we’ve talked on the show about how not only is a multiple of EBITDA in the equation, but now more and more is like net revenue retention and, low customer churn and per customer growth and things like that are being, looked at by very sophisticated investors and buyers.

So the, the deeper and wider we can go, the longer term agreements that we can create and the more strategically valuable our services are so that we keep those clients and grow them has a direct impact on [00:18:00]

Larry: the

Erick: offers that an MSP will get when they decide it’s time to exit the business. So this also makes the MSP very hard to replace.

And especially now when we’re talking about AI, right? The other thing that is a theme through what we’ve been talking about the last several, months or maybe this year has been the transition that these fast-growing MSPs are going through that are moving more towards selling business outcomes.

We’ve been talking about that forever, like stop selling technology, sell business outcomes. And with the advent of AI, Rich, we’re seeing the question being asked by the MSP’s clients now. It’s like, “Oh, you guys are using AI. We’re using AI too, and it’s saving us a ton of time and money. Why are we still paying you the same rate, right?

If you’re leveraging AI and now we have to work with a chatbot or whatever or do our own self-service ticketing and that kind of thing.” The, the unit of value has changed [00:19:00] With what SM, with what customers now want to pay for. So selling business outcomes is the way to do this. And instead of selling an agreement that says, “These are all the activities that we are going to execute for you every month,” instead shifting to, “These are the outcomes we’re going to realize for you,” right?

Security, AI gui- guardrails, guidance, things like that. And what’s important to the client are those outcomes, not how many tickets are closed, right? That’s treating a symptom rather than what we’re trying to deliver. So the next conversation MSPs should be having with their clients include questions about their business.

Assessment-type questions, not about their technology. You should know… If you’ve had a client for, m- longer than six months, you should know everything there is to know about their infrastructure and their technology, if you’re doing your job, right? [00:20:00] What is it that business owner is trying to achieve?

How do you cement your place in the boardroom rather than under a desk or in the server room, like I always say, right? So talking to them about what their aspirations are, what they’re doing with AI. I think AI is just a conversation that everyone is having now, and we know that there’s a strong, Comp- competitive factor that’s entering into our industry that we’ve never seen before, Rich.

Ev- some of the LLM companies themselves are competing for end user MSP business. We’ve got AI agencies that are cropping up that are competing for the AI business that MSPs customers are interested in. So MSPs have to really start having these conversations and understanding what the business outcomes, the, and what’s valuable to these business owners.

The, the value isn’t [00:21:00] how many tickets you close for them or how much spla- spam you block, it’s how did you help them achieve that business outcome? Number two, map the white space between your existing clients. If you’ve got a portfolio of services and solutions, Rich, and, three of your clients have 70% of it and, 15 of them have 10% gotta switch that up, right?

We’ve gotta be talking to every one of our clients about our entire portfolio of services, having them, those conversation as a s- in a strategic manner and position them as helping them achieve these business outcomes. And our marketing has to shift to be talking about these business outcomes. Our agreements have to shift.

The conversations that we’re having with our clients have to shift. So what business outcomes are we delivering for our clients today? What business problems are we solving for them, not technology problems? And then last tip, Rich, is we’ve got to nominate somebody to be that, [00:22:00] that person that has these conversations.

The other thing that we’re seeing in these fast-growing MSPs is they’re shifting the the capacity that they’re gaining from adopting AI, right? These frontier firms and these AI first. Back in, in the old days when we found excess capacity somehow in our business There was no plan for it.

It just got consumed in noise. Oh, just close tickets faster and do more of that. These folks are identifying that excess capacity and now are channeling it into customer success roles. I am not going to, we always thought we’ll just put them on higher value projects and things like that.

We’re seeing these faster growing MSPs now saying, “No, we need a customer success role.” That person is gonna be the person that leads these conversations with clients, that walks them through everything that we do, that makes sure that they are happy, that we are delivering the business outcomes that they expect, and we’re staying in front of their needs so [00:23:00] they don’t think that we’re not keeping up with them and thinking about churning out because somebody else has a better story to tell.

So growth doesn’t always mean adding more clients, Rich. In this scenario, growth means maintaining the existing valuable growing relationships that you have, delivering more value, stickiness, and then growing per-client revenue quarter over quarter. So instead of saying how many clients can we add, the question that MSPs should be asking themselves is, how much more value can we create for the clients that we have?

Rich: Yeah. Yeah. From a certain perspective w- what we’re talking about here has been true in managed services for time immemorial, right? And not e- and beyond managed services as well. Cross-selling and upselling are like the, the biggest and most widely neglected growth opportunity for MS- And this has been true a long time, and it’s a, a truism in in the world of sales and marketing that it’s always [00:24:00] easier to land more business with an existing client than find yourself a new…

So all of that has been true and is true, but it’s more true and more important now, I think, right now for the reasons that you are outlining there. First of all the stickiness issue I think is critical. At a time when there are very competent MSPs who are competing on price essentially by leveraging scale or will compete with you on price by leveraging scale, you really wanna have a deep strategic conversation with the client.

And that is, that’s how you get stickiness with that account and reduce the vulnerability you have to somebody taking that client away from you. And then at a time and this is the other thing, w- the, there is demand growing as you say, for AI services and solutions.

That requires more depth. If you wanna remain relevant to your customers, you’ve gotta go after, you’ve gotta have that kind of deep [00:25:00] relationship with the customer. And then the other thing, you were talking about how just at the very end there, you were talking about how focus on value and it’s gonna help you grow the top line.

And I would just say it’s gonna help you grow the bottom line, too. Because the deeper you get with that client in this AI era, and the more that’s leading you towards AI driven outcomes, those services are gonna be not just sticky, but more higher margin, more profitable the only thing I will point out or just ask about basically is I totally agree that customer success role is a really critical one for MSPs increasingly.

And I guess the question is if you are running an MSP big enough such that the owner is not having all the relationships, managing all the relationships with the clients, do you have, can you train, w- what’s involved in acquiring the person who is ready to play that customer success role, have a business conversation, not a technical [00:26:00] one, translate what they learn into services and so it feels like a s- a not a, hugely rare, but a somewhat different skill set than MSPs have been hiring for before.

And so even if you’re freeing up labor at the help desk, it’s not just, okay, now your business card says customer success representative. There’s gonna be some work done in terms of really getting people ready to do that.

Erick: Yeah. Yeah. No, great question. And yes, these people walk the earth, and they are working in within these MSP organizations now.

I’m not suggesting that you take, a brand-new, freshly certified tier one technician and now say, “Okay, now go start having business conversations with clients.” But, the domino effect of how that person’s, how there’s more freedom because we’re giving them more efficiency.

They can do more things, opening up maybe opportunities up higher up in the food chain of the organization, and then training that person. And I’ll say this, Rich. The breath of fresh air that just, that a client will [00:27:00] feel when you say, “Hey, we’re gonna be having regular meetings with you.”

Jamie is gonna be reaching out, having conversations. We’re creating a bunch of new assessments. We’re gonna be talking about your business outcomes, and then she will be quarterbacking who else needs to be in those conversations as the touchpoint. Remember, the customer success role isn’t the…

I don’t think it’s the fixer or the doer. It’s more of the, the listener, the gatherer of information, knowing what questions to ask, and then corralling the right folks to focus on that business outcome that client needs, rather than just, replacing these servers and laptops. You know what I mean?

Yeah. The last thing I’ll say too, was the point that I forgot is, when I was mentioning what your agreement should look like to reflect business outcomes. If your agreement is just a list of the activities that you’re gonna do every month, then your competitor’s agreement Looks exactly the same.

So a client’s gonna have trouble [00:28:00] determining who’s charging me less for these activities? They look the same. But when you are delivering the outcomes, it’s gonna be really hard for them to, look at these two proposals or agreements and, line item the value of each thing.

It’s gonna be a completely different conversation. So it’ll give you a an advantage that way as well when you’re selling to new clients.

Rich: Erick, we have we have given a lot for the MSPs in our audience to think about so far already on this episode, and they’re already thinking about and dealing with all sorts of different things.

It is difficult to be an MSP. It is stressful. It is a lot of work. We’re gonna take a quick break, you and I right here. When we come back on the other side, we’re gonna be joined by James Mignacca and Larry Medor. They are both executives at a company called Cavello. They are not going to be talking with us about Cavello, though.

They’re gonna be talking with us about an initiative that they and a colleague named Joe Ucia have launched called MSP Well. It is 100% dedicated [00:29:00] to helping MSPs get the assistance that they need, the support that they need to deal with the very real mental pressures of being an entrepreneur in the tech industry right now.

It’s important work, I think. It’s very interesting. You’re gonna learn all about it after the break. Stick around. We’re gonna be right back

Welcome back to part two of this episode of the MSP Chat Podcast, our spotlight interview segment, where we are very pleased to be joined by James Minyaka. Among many other things, he is a co-founder of an organization called MSP-WELL that we’re gonna talk about. We are also joined by Larry Medar. He is among many other things, executive advisor for strategies and, or strategy and communities at MSP-WELL.

Gentlemen, welcome to the show.

James: Thanks for having us. Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Rich: Now, we want to we wanna [00:30:00] talk about what MSP-WELL is and get into some of the specifics there. We eventually wanna kinda get the backstory on why you guys and a colleague of yours set it up in the first place.

But I alluded to the fact that both of you have day jobs outside of of MSP-WELL. So just to kick things off, we’ll start with you, James. Tell folks a little bit about who you are and what you do all week in addition to your duties for MSP-WELL.

James: Yeah, sure. No, thank you. So I’m with Cavello and I we help MSPs out when it comes to cybersecurity, and the good news there is, we continue to do that with MSP-WELL.

It’s just another thing that we’re doing in the the industry.

Rich: Larry, your turn.

Larry: Absolutely. Rich, good to see you. Erick, good to see you as well. Rich, you and I have known each other for a long time now, I think back when in the days we didn’t have gray hair. But I am the channel chief over at Cavello, and then I worked with James and Joe Uccella [00:31:00] on putting this M- MSP-WELL organization together.

That’s kinda my claim to fame. Now the story the origin story for MSP-WELL is an interesting one that you’ve told me before, Larry. But before we kinda get into that, we keep kinda hinting at the existence of something called MSP-WELL. I’ll let either one of you take this. Just help the folks in our audience who are new to it understand what MSP-WELL is and what it does.

James, you wanna take that one?

James: Go ahead, Larry. I’ll tell the story of how we got here if you, We’ll split this up, okay?

Larry: Absolutely. James has got an interesting story he’s gonna tell you that kind of was the impetus behind all of this, but, it, these MSPs, they’ve got a tough job. They’re carrying a lot of liability for a whole lot of people, and, they…

You gotta take care of the people that are protecting everyone else, and that’s really where we came up with MSP Well. All of us have [00:32:00] a story. Everybody that we meet has got some type of challenge that they’re fighting, and the stress and the burnout that comes with working in cybersecurity and working in the channel is huge.

And it’s one of those things that I think so many people really don’t take care of themselves, or perhaps they don’t know exactly where to go to find the resources to get help. So through James’ story, which you’re about to hear, we came up with this idea of you know what? We need to do something.

We want to give back to the channel and we want to put together this community, which is exactly what MSP Well is. It’s a community for the channel, whether you’re an MSP, a VAR, a vendor a media personality it’s for everyone. And with that, I’ll turn it back to you and let you hear James’ story, ’cause I think that makes a lot of sense with how we do things

James: [00:33:00] Sure.

So I guess I’ll start off by saying I, every time I go to a channel event, and over the past few years with Larry introducing me to the folks he knows, I think everyone should be super proud about what everyone has built. And what I mean by that is you weed out the folks that aren’t good people.

You, in any of these communities they’re just really good people. And so I started to see that going to events and, my story really stems from in the, it’s on the website, but it talk I talk about the fact that, we work hard as vendors and as MSP folks and there’s really no off button.

And so my, on the personal side I have two beautiful boys and they quite frankly weren’t the priority that I needed then or they needed to be in my life. [00:34:00] And unfortunately, I went through a, a separation, divorce with my wife at the time. And I was going through all these emotions as a, entrepreneur, as a, just a person and, I found that it was, it just really weighed on me.

And what happened was is I started talking to people. And, it’s interesting when you start talking to folks and again, this is why I think everyone needs to understand what you guys have built in the channel, the community is absolutely amazing because of the fact that I started talking to folks and people could relate.

I know Larry, he was step by step with me through my story and, it was very hard. I saw some, I had some dark days and, it, and it’s one of those things unless you’ve gone through it, you can’t really describe what it’s like.

And having panic attacks and going to the hospital and all that stuff, it’s really scary. And, what [00:35:00] happened was is, Yeah, we sat there and we said, “There should be something in this community.” And if there was, we would have been happy to just be part of that. But because there wasn’t we put a group of folks together Joe being one who, you know was part of the, the network and part of the story of how we got started, and Joe’s basically said, “Yeah, we need to do this.”

And then it just k- it went from there to other folks helping us out, to we’ve launched MSP Well, and we did our first kind of launch talk, and I got to y- it was a changing moment. It was, it, for me, in the sense of I told my story and I got a little bit emotional, which I normally don’t do, ’cause I talk a lot in, in public.

And what was interesting is two other people got up and told their story, and honestly, you couldn’t… the, everyone was so quiet in that room, and just, you could feel the respect and just how people cared. [00:36:00] And so we started MSP Well, but if it wasn’t for the community, we wouldn’t have a vehicle to be able to actually be successful with MSP to really reach out and make it so that folks can tell their story, and then wrap around some of the other good stuff that we’re gonna be doing in the next year or so.

Erick: It’s it’s no secret the intense amount of pressure that, an entrepreneur has in general, right? Launching a business and, internalizing all of that. And, with MSPs, I think it’s even, more pronounced because, you’re trying to do the best thing that you can for your clients, and you’re trying to do the best thing you can for, your family and yourself, and it gets really challenging.

This is… And you know what really, we always talk about on the show and we feel very strongly, Rich and I, that the MSP community is much, much different than [00:37:00] any other industry. We’re wired to help others. And it sounds like there was a tipping point for you to say, “Hey, wait a minute,” we need help ourselves as MSPs and in our community.”

Was there a, a, a tipping point, a point in time, or was this just kind of an organic the stars aligned and you guys started having conversations and decided to create something for MSPs in the channel?

James: One of the hardest things to do is tell your story. It is it- if you, like even thinking about it at the end of the day, everyone’s story is important to them ’cause it’s their story.

And, you can argue other people have it worse, blah, blah, blah, but it’s your story. And w- basically for me, that tipping point is when I was honest with myself, honest with others. I had [00:38:00] a group of folks who helped me, Larry being one, Joe, and a bunch of other folks, quite frankly, and they just supported me.

And the, the other thing is making it so that you don’t feel alone. And that was my tipping point 100%. And then I was I truly think that I thought to myself, “If this is happening to me, it’s gotta be happening to others.” And when we realized that is the case, then it really just changed for us.

We, we had, we got to a point where we just absolutely needed to do this, and that’s exactly what we did. I just wanted to clarify one thing that I think is important for me. We talk about entrepreneurship and all that stuff, but really if you’re in a company that is a growth company, a like a startup type MSP, it doesn’t matter if you’re the C-level, the founder, we’re all going 100 miles an hour and the stress is shared amongst us all.

And I just want to point that out

Rich: So yeah I think it’s safe to say [00:39:00] basically there are a lot of people in our audience on this show here in all sorts of different roles and capacities at MSPs, at vendors. They all can relate to what we’re talking about here. And a lot of them probably could benefit and maybe even kinda know that they could benefit, would benefit from getting help of some kind to some degree.

So tell folks a little bit, if somebody does decide, I wanna investigate MSP more, I wanna see what kinda help it can help me get. I go to the website. What kinda happens next? Kinda walk people through the process of how MSP Well can help them with whatever it is they’re going through.

Larry: Yeah, absolutely. As MSP well, this is a community, it’s a nonprofit community built by the channel for the channel. We’re not a bunch of people trying to come in here and trying to tell people, “Here’s what you need to do to make yourself better,” and stuff like that. Because look, at the end of the day, [00:40:00] we’re all channel people.

We are not licensed doctors, therapists, or anything like that, and we’re not ever trying to play that role. What we’re trying to do is pull resources together so that the community, the channel community, has one place that they can go to try and find some help. James tells his story and, the tipping point and stuff like that.

Again, all I did was just sit there and I’d listen to him, and sometimes that’s what you need. And so that was the idea behind putting all of this together. So what we’re doing is we’re asking folks right now to simply join the community. We’ve got a newsletter that’ll be going out. And join the community, be part of the first folks to come on board with us, and then watch as we continue to grow and continue to add different programs and different things like that, different resources.

It’s really just the beginning and we’ve [00:41:00] put together a really fantastic group of people from within the channel to kinda help make sure that we’re steering this ship in the right direction. And everybody, some of the folks that we’ve got on here they’re from the channel, but they also have a lot of nonprofit experience, so they’re kinda helping us.

They sit on boards of other nonprofit organizations, so they’re helping us kinda shape things. We have MSP owners that are on our board, such as Joe and Miguel Ribeiro, Michael Goldstein folks like that are, representing the MSP side. We’ve got vendors that are on there as well. So w- right now it’s really about anyone that’s carrying the work of this channel is eligible to join into the community.

And again, we’ve already put a bunch of things together, but the best is yet to come. We’ve got a whole lot of stuff that, that will be coming to MSP well, like I said, from resources, stories, different things like that. But we’re also looking at putting different programs together just to kinda help with the [00:42:00] stress, the burnout, all of that good stuff Yeah, so I would say

James: like anything, any new venture, right?

There’s a lot of foundation work that needs to happen and that’s exactly what we’re doing. And I’d like to say that, we’re raising awareness now, and really next year is our big launch. There’s some pretty exciting news that we’ll share later on around funding and things like that.

But I’m gonna tell you what we’re not. We’re not professionals in the sense of mental health professionals, therapists or anything like that, and we don’t wanna get mixed up into that world in the sense of, that’s just not our wheelhouse. What we’re going to do is we’re going to continue to raise the awareness with our story and continually try to not– to get rid of that stigma and and then we’re gonna listen to people.

We want to know what people want. Like at, at events, if you think about going to [00:43:00] events I don’t know how many times I’ve left an event feeling just overwhelmed and exhausted and it’s just purely based off of the fact that, you’re putting so– you’re doing so much in a small period of time.

Plus, you’re, you’re– there’s a lot of folks that are introverts that struggle to be out and talking to folks, and you add alcohol into it. And so we really wanna make it so that there’s just a real safe spot for folks to be able to be able to, talk about their mental health and raise awareness.

So yeah, we’re not professionals, but we’re gonna bring the professionals to the table so that we can all learn.

Erick: I think we’re all familiar with groups, right? And communities in the channel, and peer groups and affinity groups and advisory boards and councils and things like that.

Why do you think it’s taken so long for the channel to address mental health and wellbeing?

Larry: I’d like to take a stab at that one. [00:44:00] Just at least my perspective on this is, I’m not one of the younger guys in the channel anymore like I was when I first joined many years ago, a couple of decades ago.

And it was my generation that was basically, as a man, you were told to just, “Hey, toughen up,” “Swallow it.” You’ve just got to, you gotta… You weren’t encouraged to share your story. You were just told, “Hey, you’re the man. You’ve got to, like I said, toughen up. You’ve got to get through this on your own.”

And sadly, that’s what a lot of folks in my generation still tend to do, and it’s actually been through my three adult children, two of which are males. They’ve got a whole different philosophy on this. And they say, or at least I think we hope that each generation gets smarter than the generation before it.

And I see these young people in their late 20s, early 30s, and they handle things a [00:45:00] lot differently. They talk a lot more openly about what’s bothering them. And I think they’re, like I said, they’re a little bit smarter than at least my generation was, where we were just told to, “You just gotta toughen up and get through it,” especially as a man, and especially if you’re a business owner.

So that at least is my point of view on this. James, I don’t know if you’ve got something you want to share any different from that.

James: No I agree. I, at the end of the day, let’s be honest being vulnerable is very difficult. It’s it’s the opposite of how we were brought up, and I think, like, when you’re vulnerable, you can actually really talk about your feelings, but also others.

And j- I… it’s a journey. It really is. I’ve watched folks… we’re, we encourage folks that are part of MSP Well if they’re ready, tell their story and put it into a blog. I think that’s part of the healing process, but it could be different for everyone. And then, I think honestly it’s probably something [00:46:00] that we I would imagine if you think about it from a MSP standpoint, let’s be honest, the priorities are always about getting more customers, a lot more logos, adapting to cybersecurity, now AI.

There is so much to go through and talk about. It’s just, it probably just hasn’t made it to the priority board, and I think really what it comes down to is we can now understand the fact that it actually causes disruptions in the organization, right? It is a productivity killer, right? And so I think now people are starting to be aware, be a little more self-aware of themselves and what’s available out there.

Rich: So the, the big launch essentially of the organization is coming in 2027, you guys have indicated. But you went public with the existence of the organization and its mission early-ish this year six, seven months ago [00:47:00] approximately. It– A- as you look at the time since then, between then and now basically, when a lot more people have become aware of what you guys are doing, what have you heard?

What feedback have you gotten? What input have you gotten? What kind of engagement already have you seen with the group? What have you learned from that and how has it fed into your plans for 2027, and maybe even changed your thoughts about the the community a little?

James: I think we’ve learned a lot.

And let me be very clear on that, a lot. We kind of joke ’cause it’s yeah, we jumped into this for the right reasons, and now we’re trying to navigate, not-for-profits, which is absolutely amazing. We just bring the folks on that ha- have the experience all that good stuff.

And so I think it was we really didn’t know how fast the adoption would go, and after our first launch I think we had 200 [00:48:00] folks sign up to the website, and that, that has continued since. And so I would say we were w- very overwhelmed and surprised and this just solidifies that we’re doing the right thing, right?

And I think the learning never ends, right? It really never ends. And so I will, I’ll say this… A lot of folks ask me or ask us, “How do I become a part of this?” And I will personally say this for myself I, we only s- I only started this because it wasn’t there, like I said before.

I am passionate about telling this, my story. I’m passionate about the topic, but this has to stand on its own through generations. This is not a Larry James, Joe whoever else show. This is MSP Well, and m- I believe that this will be a logo and a brand throughout the MSP industry for many years to come.

And going back to folks helping s- once, [00:49:00] once we figure out some of these programs and start to expand everyone can help in their own way, right? This is a community thing. This has nothing to do with personal brand or vendor brand or anything like that, and we want folks to help us because this, I think it’s just part of that.

I can be the first one to admit, my healing, the journey for healing is part of doing MSP and talking about it. I’m sure I’m not the only one that believes that, so I think it’s, I think it’s gonna be just the start of many years to come for MSP Well.

Larry: Yeah, and if I can add to that real quick.

We knew, or at least we felt when we launched this, that it was going to be welcomed into the channel, but I don’t think any of us had any idea that

how this thing was just gonna rock- it’d be a rocket [00:50:00] ship right off the launchpad. Then us announcing this, we had people coming to us said, “Oh, do you want to the community almost immediately.” People came to us and said, “How do I get involved?” I, I can name several different people that came to me and said, “Hey, my previous profession before I came into this channel was I was a licensed occupational therapist or healthcare therapist,” or different things like that.

“I know people. I want to help. I want to get involved. How do we get involved?” So it was It was almost overwhelming to see how much of an actual need there was for something like this in the channel. And I want to bring one thing up. We’ve talked about sharing our stories and stuff like that, and for anybody that’s listen- listening to this, you don’t have to share your story to be a member in the community for MSP Well.

If you want to share your story, [00:51:00] we welcome it. Like James has shared his, I’ve shared mine, Joe shared his story. But I just wanna make sure that people understand you don’t have to come out and say what’s bothering you or what your story is. You can keep that to yourself. We’re just here to try to put those resources together that can get you some help

Erick: Yeah, a couple things that you mentioned, Larry, kinda resonated with me.

The first one being, this generational kind of- … influence and upbringing. It’s like, “Hey, man, suck it up,” yeah. “Just take care of your business,” right? Just, And so that really resonated with me. And then I, the, what you just said also is “Hey, just join,” right?

Yeah. You don’t have to feel like you have to, tell your story or whatever. I’m sure that folks, e- especially from my generation, so I’m aging myself too, Larry, right? We need to warm up a little bit to being vulnerable and being open and, kinda sharing some of these things.

And, f- from my own experience it’s lonely at [00:52:00] the top when you’re running a, a business, a company. There are things that you don’t share with other people, and not even, your significant other or your family. It’s like, “No, I’m…” In my mind it’s like I’ve gotta, push through this.

This is, I’m not gonna make anybody else worry about what I’m dealing with all day long and things like that. So that really resonates with me. So what do you say to folks that, that aren’t really ready yet and but may need some help? And, beyond just, “Hey, just join,” right?

How do you get someone who is not used to, being, joining organizations or f- feeling that they need help because, this has been instilled in them since, we were kids and we saw our, the previous generation, before us never complain and just work themselves to death and things like that struggling with it.

What do you say to those folks?

James: I think you have to, to your point, you have to be ready, right? And I [00:53:00] think I would hope that just, raising awareness would allow folks to understand that, others are feeling the same or have the same experience. I can talk personally.

I think that ultimately they always say when you hit rock bottom, things change. I don’t think that you need to hit rock bottom. I think you just have to be self-aware. And I always, I believe people go to the gym to work on their physical health. I think a therapist is always…

I always tell everyone should need a therapist, they should go to a therapist, and it really helps them with their mental health. And, I both my kids do. I’m a big fan of it. I tell everyone find the right one. Like anyone, it’s, it takes a while and make that part of your everyday life.

And once you start to understand yourself a little bit better and truly, it is a journey. Like I tr- I, two years ago, I was a different person. And it’s not like I drastically changed, but I can honestly say I understand myself a little bit more than I did, [00:54:00] and I don’t think that ever changes. I really think you understand the tools how to navigate throughout life, and there’s always gonna be obstacles.

Someone passes away or, like the economy this, or whatever it might be, but you gotta be resilient, build yourself up. And then the last piece, and I did this with Larry and others surround yourself around folks that you can trust- … that are in your support group.

It’s I had a friend yesterday call me up and say, “I need 30 minutes. I’m just not feeling good about something.” And sometimes just being there to listen to someone is so important. And so I think we just gotta go back to being human. I hate to say it, but we all put our barriers up.

We, and we go about our life, but stop and, and talk to folks. And that’s why the channel is such a great community. It really is.

Rich: Yeah. You just touched on something when I want- And like people [00:55:00]

Larry: Go ahead, real sorry.

Rich: I’m sorry, go ahead.

Larry: No, I was just gonna say, the way I kinda look at this, what we’re building is a place for people to go before it gets bad.

We’re just trying to put the resources together for somebody to come out here because, I went through my own journey over 20 years ago, and man, do I wish something like this had existed so that I had, I, ’cause I couldn’t take the time to go figure out where are these resources that could help me.

I know they’re out there somewhere, but I just didn’t have the time to do it. Now, that’s what I hope this is for many other people, is they may not have the time to go find it on their own, but before it gets bad, you can go to MSP Well, and we’re gonna have all these resources available to you no matter what the problem is.

So sorry about that, Rich. Didn’t mean to jump in on you.

Rich: No, not at all. Not at all. No, and I, and what I was gonna say basically is M- MSP is the first organization that’s 100% dedicated to this issue. But it’s not necessarily the only thing that people can do if they need or want [00:56:00] help.

You were kinda just providing an example or two there, James, and peer groups came up earlier. For the person in the audience here who, for whatever reason doesn’t want to engage with MSP Well, but might need or benefit from help, talk a little bit about the, the other ways, the things both of you guys did before creating MSP Well to get help, to provide help to peers and so on.

What kind of advice would you offer to people above and beyond engaging with MSP to get the, the assistance you need?

James: Yeah, I think education for me was the big one. Again, having that support group around you. I think that talking to family members and and really just, again, it’s like you take the step…

I g- I like to refer, it’s, I like to use the analogy of working out, which we all know we need to do more of, right? It’s like we always say, how many times “I gotta go to the gym more. I gotta do this.” That’s fine, but at least and [00:57:00] so when it comes to the mental health piece, it’s like we know now that it’s okay to talk about your mental health.

And so everyone’s journey is gonna be completely different. Folks will kinda back into it. But I really encourage everyone to, look at the local resources that you might have, or through benefits or anything like that and trying to find that, what I call the trainer for your the gym.

It’s like a, it’s someone helping you with your mental health journey. And they’re professionals. It’s amazing when they walk you through it. You’re like, “Okay, that’s why I do that.” And it’s it’s not a bad thing. It really isn’t. It’s, it truly opens your eyes, and it, it- It makes you feel like there’s a cause and effect.

Yeah, I do this because this happened, or, and it really is one of those things where you never just all of a sudden… It’s like going to the gym again. You don’t just go and then you’re, you have muscles. And you’re like, “Come on.” It’s a continuous [00:58:00] thing, right? And I’ve talked to other folks who are really, they meditate and things like that, and some folks will do things like riding their s- their bike to, as a stress reliever.

And that’s where it’s like you’ve gotta tailor it to, to you, ’cause everyone’s different, right? And so of it, like really what we wanna do is we’re gonna have it so that folks can reach out to us if they want. And if they don’t, we’re gonna educate via even what we’re doing right now.

We’re gonna have the blogs, we’re gonna have the resources just to be able to educate yourself

Erick: There’s this old adage out there that we’ve all heard in, in, in all different kinds of walks of life. It’s it’s never too late, right? Sometimes we feel like, “Oh my goodness,” “The weight of the world is on me. I…” “There’s nobody that can help me.” I just have to figure it out.”

It sounds to me like, you mentioned, hey, before things get bad, but what about when things are really bad, right? When somebody really needs that assistance. So I’d like for you to just [00:59:00] take the last couple of minutes and talk about, not only the way, the opportunity for folks that, need help before, during, in the middle of something, a crisis, but how else other folks can help that may be, like you said, “Hey, I have a background in some of these disciplines, and I can also…

I also wanna join to give back as well.” So can you kinda talk to us about the entire spectrum of folks that that you’re building this opportunity to collaborate together?

Larry: Yeah. First off, if I could jump in before James does on this one. Look, September is National Suicide Prevention Month, and there is a resource out there that I have only learned about as we started this MSP journey.

So if there’s anyone that’s watching this that feels they’re, at the rock bottom, you can call or you can text 988. [01:00:00] That’s whether you’re in the United States or you’re in Canada, and you can get immediate support. You can get help from true professionals that can help you out, no matter what your problem is.

You can also visit there’s a chat lifeline called 988lifeline.org. So you can reach out to that as well. But again, in the US and in Canada, 988. You can text that, you can call it, and you will get immediate help. Now I’ll let James kinda address some of the things that we’re looking at doing in the future as far as people that we’re gonna bring in and things like that

James: Yeah.

So thanks, Larry. At the end of the day, we are self-aware to know that we’re not professionals, right? So again- but we are looking, we will be bringing in folks and there’s like wellness type of training that we’ve been looking at and bringing those folks in, and [01:01:00] it’s basically little stuff like, signs to look out for when, a panic attack could be coming.

Things to look out for with other folks. I don’t know, have you guys ever seen someone with a, going through a panic attack? I’m just curious. Rich, Erick? I think, no. Erick?

Rich: No.

James: Okay. Let me tell you something. When you see that, when you go through that, I’ll tell you it’s easier to go through it yourself.

I witnessed my oldest son going through it, and it is the scariest thing you’ll ever have to go through, in my opinion. You don’t even know what to do, right? ‘Cause it’s like you’re the, the person you, the people you love the most, you just wanna take care of. And so it’s like, what do you do when that happens, right?

How do you ensure that is a panic attack versus nothing medical and things like that? At the end of the day, you always do the right thing, call 911. And we’re looking for the preventative type of tools that you can not only wa- look out for certain things, but figure out certain tactics to be able [01:02:00] to help folks out.

There’s ways that you can kind of coach people through panic attacks by even tapping their forehead. And again, it’s different for everyone. But that’s exactly what we are going to do. Like my… I think at some point you’re gonna see us having these types of classes at events where, for example, you come a day early if you’re interested in doing the full, one day, exercise, walking through it.

And just like understanding the different tools of what works. If, and then you, it’s your job to put together what’s working for you or your family and being able to understand what to really look for. And so that’s kinda where we’re going to when it comes to dif- different type of offerings that we’re going to be talking about in 2027.

Larry: James, you said it all in there that everyone in this, everyone on, in this conversation and everyone in this industry is running at [01:03:00] 100 miles an hour all the time, which is completely true. And yet the two of you and some other very good people have taken time out and invested it in creating this organization.

Rich: And I’m sure Erick as well, w- we both wanna thank you for that because this is long overdue, and it’s great to see some people finally addressing it. It occurs to me we’ve been talking about MSP Well for a long time right now, and people can probably find it pretty easily themselves online.

I don’t believe we’ve ever given everyone the the URL, so we should do that. And then if each of you could also just tell folks in our audience here how to get in touch with you, learn more about MSP Well, maybe find ways that they can volunteer and contribute get some advice on getting help before the big launch in 2027.

I’ll start with you, James. Yeah. If, so we we have the URL, the domain mspwell.com, so it’s pretty easy to get to. And there’s [01:04:00] a website there, you can just, you can sign up with your email it’s a web form. And the idea is once you’re there, when we start to release our roadmap, we’re gonna send updates out on the different offerings that we have and in keeping everyone up to date.

James: And then we’re gonna be looking for volunteers to help out with certain areas of expertise. Again someone who has expertise in for example even all the way from accounting, right? When it comes to not-for-profits and things like that, like there’s so many folks out there that would be happy to help.

And once we once we’re there, we’re gonna start asking for volunteers. And then, look us up on LinkedIn. We’re just people. Honestly, we’re just people. You can y- add us to LinkedIn. I think that it doesn’t need to be formal. Send a note and I’m sure one of us will reach out.

I know one of us will reach out

Larry: Yeah. Absolutely. So that’s mspwell.com, and [01:05:00] then if you wanted to reach either one of us, you can reach James at [email protected], [email protected]. Joe Ucya is [email protected]. If you’ve got some questions, we encourage you, please just reach out to us. We’ll answer those questions and do our best to just point you in the right direction if you are looking for specific help of some type.

Rich: Fantastic. And we will have links to all the resources that we’ve been talking about in this conversation available in the show notes for this episode. So thanks again for joining us. Thanks again for everything you do around MSP for the community. Folks, Erick and I are going to take a quick break now.

When we come back on the other side, we’re gonna talk a little bit more about this conversation and this community. We’re gonna have a little fun. We’re gonna wrap up the show. Stick around. We will be right back.

Welcome back, part three of this [01:06:00] episode of the MSP Chat Podcast. Thanks again to James and Larry from taking ti- for taking time out to talk about this very important initiative that they have launched. I do hope people check it out. I do hope people who are feeling like they’re overwhelmed after listening to this conversation either reach out to MSP Well or in some other manner go out there and get help.

I was struck by that metaphor about getting help as being something like working with a trainer that came up in there. And I like that a lot. I like the idea that the purpose of dealing with your mental pressures is to get stronger in the same way that working with a trainer, what you’re trying to do is get stronger.

And a- as we discussed as they outlined during the the conversation there, there’s this idea that what the strong thing to do is to toughen up. Tough it out, toughen up. And I really do sincerely, personally believe that the strong thing to do is not [01:07:00] to toughen up but to open up and to, a- approach your friends, approach whatever it is that’s gonna work for you and that’s suitable for helping you through what you’re dealing with right now.

That’s the smart thing. That’s what makes you smarter. That’s what makes you more effective. That’s what makes you happier. That what’s what’s makes you a better boss and spouse and parent and all of these other things. So I think all that is really great. And then the last thing I’ll just underscore, ’cause this came up at one point early in the conversation, is just that MSPs do, I think, tend to be people who by nature and their profession drives them to this, they think a lot about helping other people, right?

You’re in the IT help business, basically, and so they’re very other-oriented in terms of what somebody needs and and how can I help them get that. And sometimes therefore they’re so focused on others they neglect themselves a little bit. And I hope people [01:08:00] understand this is not an either/or.

You really need to be focused on both of these things. So if you’re struggling in any way at all you really need to be working on that too.

Erick: Yeah. And as, as I mentioned in the conversation, it’s, it’s… In entrepreneur, in anyone, that is responsible for the livelihoods and the businesses of others, like your own team, your clients and all this stuff, it’s a lot of pressure.

And it gets lonely. Like I like I said, like- I don’t bring that home and talk to my wife and kids about, what business challenges and problems that are keeping me up at night. And I think you’re right on point, Rich, about MSPs. I think the folks that are, that gravitate toward being MSPs are just like any other profession that helps others, whether it’s, healthcare or whatever.

We want to help. And, I think that what, and I’ll just speak from my own experience. I feel like, I have to be the strong one [01:09:00] because if I start cracking, it’s gonna have this ripple effect to all of these other folks that I am in some way I feel responsible for them, right?

And so we internalize a lot of that. And, it’s it’s not something that I wanna… It’s hard for us to open up and be vulnerable, and I just wanna commend the folks at MSP well for launching something like this. I’m like, why hasn’t someone thought about this before? Yeah. Because it is so needed right now.

And I also really appreciate their perspective of it. Hey, you know what? We’re just gonna collect as many folks that wanna help us out and do this thing. We’re not professionals. We see a need, just like MSPs do, Rich, in this channel. We see a need, we’re gonna tackle it, and we’re gonna work the problem.

And, we’re, our hearts are in the right place. We wanna help the community. And, you had me right there

Rich: we will revisit this story early in [01:10:00] in 2027 when this sort of bigger more formal launch they were talking about with a, a more complete set of services and and so on becomes available.

Just see how things have evolved since this conversation here. So this is not the last time this initiative or this topic will come up. We’ve got links to a lot of the resources that came up during that conversation in the show notes. Check those out. And and yeah it…

Whether you need help from MSP Well or are one of the many people apparently who have volunteered to provide help go ahead and follow up on that. We’ve got some links for you. But for now Erick, we are left with time for just one last thing, and it comes to us from the UK. Now, it it’s not easy to find yourself a good rental, Airbnb kind of property in the heart of London at a reasonable price if you’re going there on vacation or even just on business.

And there was a, a, a window of time there, about six weeks in fact recently, where if you were looking [01:11:00] for a place to to rent for a short-term stay in London on booking.com, you came across a pretty sweet l- listing. It’s within walking distance of Parliament right in the heart of of London.

It, there’s a cat who lives there, and you get to hang out with Larry the cat. And maybe the address sounds vaguely familiar, ’cause it turns out to be located at 10 Downing Street Now obviously, this was not a real listing, and in fact, this was not some sort of d- you know, deep fake scam thing.

This was actually a consumer watchdog group that was curious to see how diligent is Booking.com about making sure that the properties people are renting on the platform actually exist. And so they put up a listing for 10 Downing Street. It took about six weeks b- and they not only put it up, but they went ahead and then rented it for a few days and gave Booking.com some money, and it took about six weeks for the [01:12:00] platform to figure out there was a problem here and take that listing down.

So I would just say I consider myself newly aware of this issue myself right now. If you see a listing on one of the Airbnb or Booking do- or whatever that looks a little too good to be true, just go maybe one layer deeper and make sure that it is actually a real property that you can legitimately rent.

Erick: Rats, I better cancel my Buckingham Palace reservation now.

Rich: Yeah. It was called the Taj Mahal. I thought w- that, perfect. I’m gonna take that for a week. Folks, that is all the time we’ve got for you here on this week’s episode of the show. We thank you very much for joining you joining us. We will see you in a week with another episode.

Until then, I will simply remind you this is both a video and an audio podcast, which means that if you’re listening to us right now but you’d like to check us out on video, you can go to YouTube. You’ll find us there. If you’re watching us on YouTube, you [01:13:00] can go to Google or Apple or Spotify, wherever you get audio podcasts, and you can find us there, too.

And wherever you find us, please subscribe, rate, review. It’s gonna help other people find and enjoy the show just like you do. This show is produced by the great Riley Simpson, part of the team with us here at Channel Mastered, where we help vendors build, grow, and optimize thriving MSP channels. You can learn more about the many ways we do that at our website, which is located at www.channelmastered.com.

Channel Mastered has a sister organization called MSP Mastered. That’s Erick and his team working directly with MSPs to help them grow and optimize their business. More information available at www.mspmastered.com. So once again, we thank you for joining us. We’ll see you in a week. Until then, folks, please remember, as we always ask you to, you can’t spell channel without [01:14:00] MSP.